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	<title>Comments on: Rovellifest 1</title>
	<atom:link href="http://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/</link>
	<description>Foundations of Quantum Theory</description>
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		<title>By: physics musings &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Quantum probability</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[physics musings &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Quantum probability]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2006 22:04:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-25</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] The so called relational interpretations have, i think, a clear Bayesian substrate. Probably the best known relational theory nowadays is Rovelli&#8217;s, whose recent paper Relation EPR (nicely reviewed in Alejandro&#8217;s blog) has been widely discussed elsewhere. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The so called relational interpretations have, i think, a clear Bayesian substrate. Probably the best known relational theory nowadays is Rovelli&#8217;s, whose recent paper Relation EPR (nicely reviewed in Alejandro&#8217;s blog) has been widely discussed elsewhere. [...]</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Qulog 2.0 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; New additions to the Blogroll</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Qulog 2.0 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; New additions to the Blogroll]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 11:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-19</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Quantum Quandaries [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Quantum Quandaries [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Aaron Sheldon</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron Sheldon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 May 2006 15:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-16</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Opps,

I said that Lorentz boosts don&#039;t perserve volume elements, what was I thinking about?!! Of course they do.  Perhaps I was thinking about line elements?  Now tranlational invariance of state normalization is not gauraneted in curved space-times like the Schwardchild metric, or other solutions where the speed of light varies on a cosmic scale.

Perhaps what I was thinking about was the Dirac solution for the electron.  The inner product of wave four vectors will is not invariant with respect to Lorentz boosts.  So two states that are orthongonal in one reference frame may not be in a moving reference frame.

Sorry for the idiocy, I must remember to think before I type.

Best regards,]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Opps,</p>
<p>I said that Lorentz boosts don&#8217;t perserve volume elements, what was I thinking about?!! Of course they do.  Perhaps I was thinking about line elements?  Now tranlational invariance of state normalization is not gauraneted in curved space-times like the Schwardchild metric, or other solutions where the speed of light varies on a cosmic scale.</p>
<p>Perhaps what I was thinking about was the Dirac solution for the electron.  The inner product of wave four vectors will is not invariant with respect to Lorentz boosts.  So two states that are orthongonal in one reference frame may not be in a moving reference frame.</p>
<p>Sorry for the idiocy, I must remember to think before I type.</p>
<p>Best regards,</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Aaron Sheldon</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-10</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron Sheldon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Apr 2006 18:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-10</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The ontological question being: What exactly is happening when things aren&#039;t going about interacting?  Maybe sweet nothing at all is going on.

I do think we need to broaden the interpretation from the pure idea that things only happen when we observe them happening.  This is disconcerteningly self centred]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ontological question being: What exactly is happening when things aren&#8217;t going about interacting?  Maybe sweet nothing at all is going on.</p>
<p>I do think we need to broaden the interpretation from the pure idea that things only happen when we observe them happening.  This is disconcerteningly self centred</p>
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		<title>By: mattleifer</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mattleifer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-9</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[More generally, there is a perfectly good retrodictive formalism for QM wherein states evolve backwards from measurement events instead of forwards from preparations.  That&#039;s the formalism you use to infer when the cat died.  However, the retrodictive state is in general very different from the predictive state.  You get into a problem if you regard the predictive state as a complete description of reality and ignore the retrodictive state.  The same is true in classical probability of course, which is just more evidence that we should be skeptical of the reality of any sort of quantum state.

Replacing &quot;observation&quot; with &quot;interaction&quot; is at the heart of what Rovelli and also the Everettian&#039;s are trying to do.  The problem is that we are forced to adopt a very odd ontology in both these attempts.

For me, the main issue is the &quot;reality problem&quot;.  If we deny reality both to quantum states and to the usual notion of hidden variables then only the probability rule is left to connect the quantum formalism to things that really happen in the universe.  It would be nice to think that science can describe what is really going on in the world in the absence of measuring devices, observers, etc., but I don&#039;t think any interpretation of QM gives a compelling answer to this yet.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More generally, there is a perfectly good retrodictive formalism for QM wherein states evolve backwards from measurement events instead of forwards from preparations.  That&#8217;s the formalism you use to infer when the cat died.  However, the retrodictive state is in general very different from the predictive state.  You get into a problem if you regard the predictive state as a complete description of reality and ignore the retrodictive state.  The same is true in classical probability of course, which is just more evidence that we should be skeptical of the reality of any sort of quantum state.</p>
<p>Replacing &#8220;observation&#8221; with &#8220;interaction&#8221; is at the heart of what Rovelli and also the Everettian&#8217;s are trying to do.  The problem is that we are forced to adopt a very odd ontology in both these attempts.</p>
<p>For me, the main issue is the &#8220;reality problem&#8221;.  If we deny reality both to quantum states and to the usual notion of hidden variables then only the probability rule is left to connect the quantum formalism to things that really happen in the universe.  It would be nice to think that science can describe what is really going on in the world in the absence of measuring devices, observers, etc., but I don&#8217;t think any interpretation of QM gives a compelling answer to this yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Sheldon</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron Sheldon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Apr 2006 03:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-8</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The thing that we tend to forget about Schordinger&#039;s Cat is that we can always do an autopsy on the cat to get a rough idea of when it died.

I&#039;d like to forward a motion to remove the word &#039;observation&#039; from all interpretations of QM and replace it with the word &#039;interaction&#039;. This would make QM processes a bit more similar to Markov processes. 

Do the yeas have it? Motion carried?

With regard to quant-ph/0506228 because Lorentz boosts don&#039;t perserve volume elements (go ahead take that determinant, make my day) I would be cautious of relativistic theories that do not include changes in the normalization and orthoganality of QM states.  There is a trick to get around this, but my lips are sealed out of fear of being called a crack pot, cracked pot, or just a general crack smoker.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing that we tend to forget about Schordinger&#8217;s Cat is that we can always do an autopsy on the cat to get a rough idea of when it died.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to forward a motion to remove the word &#8216;observation&#8217; from all interpretations of QM and replace it with the word &#8216;interaction&#8217;. This would make QM processes a bit more similar to Markov processes. </p>
<p>Do the yeas have it? Motion carried?</p>
<p>With regard to quant-ph/0506228 because Lorentz boosts don&#8217;t perserve volume elements (go ahead take that determinant, make my day) I would be cautious of relativistic theories that do not include changes in the normalization and orthoganality of QM states.  There is a trick to get around this, but my lips are sealed out of fear of being called a crack pot, cracked pot, or just a general crack smoker.</p>
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		<title>By: mattleifer</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-7</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mattleifer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-7</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sounds interesting.  I&#039;ll have to have a look at it and maybe write a post about it,]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds interesting.  I&#8217;ll have to have a look at it and maybe write a post about it,</p>
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		<title>By: Dick Thompson</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-6</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Thompson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-6</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul Merriam, in quant-ph/0506228, has proposed transformations between observing and observed systems in RQM that he claims to be transitive and to solve several of the problems of entangled systems.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Merriam, in quant-ph/0506228, has proposed transformations between observing and observed systems in RQM that he claims to be transitive and to solve several of the problems of entangled systems.</p>
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		<title>By: mattleifer</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-5</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mattleifer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Apr 2006 00:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-5</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not inclined to take problems to do with the wavefunction too seriously.  I trust the empirical predictions of QM, encapsulated in the probability rule, but don&#039;t attach too much meaning to any particular way of writing down the formalism.  We could use the Heisenberg picture, or any of the various Wigner-type distributions instead of wavefunctions and generate identical predictions.  Each of these gives a different intuition abour what reality should be like.

I think there is a formalism out there, waiting to be discovered, that makes much more sense in a relativistic context than any way QM has been written down before.  Discovering such a thing could be the key to understanding QM for the universe as a whole.  That&#039;s just my opinion though, and I am happy to let the quantum gravity experts worry about these problems until I can come up with a better idea.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not inclined to take problems to do with the wavefunction too seriously.  I trust the empirical predictions of QM, encapsulated in the probability rule, but don&#8217;t attach too much meaning to any particular way of writing down the formalism.  We could use the Heisenberg picture, or any of the various Wigner-type distributions instead of wavefunctions and generate identical predictions.  Each of these gives a different intuition abour what reality should be like.</p>
<p>I think there is a formalism out there, waiting to be discovered, that makes much more sense in a relativistic context than any way QM has been written down before.  Discovering such a thing could be the key to understanding QM for the universe as a whole.  That&#8217;s just my opinion though, and I am happy to let the quantum gravity experts worry about these problems until I can come up with a better idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Sheldon</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron Sheldon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Apr 2006 00:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/17/rovellifest-1/#comment-4</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well you are starting to scratch an itch that has been bothering me; especially with that &#039;state of the universe&#039; thingy.

Are we expected to accept that making one single measurement defines the state throughout all space-time?  I hope not, this is just determenism in sheeps clothing.

So the battle rages thus:  Perhaps wave functions are only defined on single light cone slices through space-time.  Different measurements can intersect along two dimensional surfaces, but this is okay because measure theory only requires that the states be defined almost everywhere, which means we can leave wave functions undefined at the intersection of light cones.  However this means that we can only every make a countably infinite number of observations of the universe, not a continum of observations.

As for defining an evolution operator, lets not even go there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well you are starting to scratch an itch that has been bothering me; especially with that &#8216;state of the universe&#8217; thingy.</p>
<p>Are we expected to accept that making one single measurement defines the state throughout all space-time?  I hope not, this is just determenism in sheeps clothing.</p>
<p>So the battle rages thus:  Perhaps wave functions are only defined on single light cone slices through space-time.  Different measurements can intersect along two dimensional surfaces, but this is okay because measure theory only requires that the states be defined almost everywhere, which means we can leave wave functions undefined at the intersection of light cones.  However this means that we can only every make a countably infinite number of observations of the universe, not a continum of observations.</p>
<p>As for defining an evolution operator, lets not even go there.</p>
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